Konqueror has a problem when viewing this section of the Main Page: it displays texts of the events with the same width as the text of the first event, showing large blank area below the image. I have changed sample template on this page so that it is displayed properly in Konqueror. Is it acceptable? How does it looks in other browsers? Nikola 09:42, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have feeling this is related to the use of
markup in the template, for the image. I don't know why we are using html instead of wikimarkup. blankfaze | (беседа!) 12:02, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

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ITN was vandalised

Some anon just replaced it with a mention of our controversial childlove article, with a wikilink to an article on VfD. Would it be prudent to block this user (216.255.48.36)? Johnleemk | Talk 13:45, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

He did it again. Reverted, message left. –Hajor

User has been blocked for 24 hours by Ilyanep. Johnleemk | Talk 14:23, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

For me, main page vandalism is automatic grounds to block someone for 24-72 hours. →Raul654 17:47, Aug 18, 2004 (UTC)

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Any reason we don't protect this article?

Is there any reason that these main page template articles don't go the path of the main page and become protected? People could still suggest changes to it via this talk page...Then we wouldn't have the chance of a vandalized front page, which ihmo is a horrible thing! — マイケル ₪ 14:06, Aug 20, 2004 (UTC)

Due to continual vandalism, I've protected this page. These new main page templates didn't exist when I used to contribute to wikipedia, however it used to be consider preferable to have only sysops edit the main page, and keep it protected, than to allow anyone to edit it, including would-be vandals. This was considered justifiable because our main page is our most visable page. It might be that this concensus has changed since I've been gone. However seeing as this page is getting continually vandalized, and does reflect a section of the front page, I have protected it following our OLD policy. Anyone is more than welcome to unprotect it if concensus on this issue has changed, but I think we should seriously consider keeping front page templates protected. I'm sure there are plenty of sysops willing to update it continuously. — マイケル ₪ 20:53, Aug 20, 2004 (UTC)

I believe the reason these template articles aren't protected is because if they were then non-admins couldn't edit them, and that's a bad thing. Temporary protection during periods of vandalism by multiple different IP addresses is reasonable, though. anthony (see warning) 20:55, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, this didn't used to be considered a bad thing. In fact, most users, including those who were not admins, agreed it was preferable to our MAIN PAGE being viewed while vandalized. A few sysops watched the talk page for suggested changes, and made them when nessessary. — マイケル ₪ 21:22, Aug 20, 2004 (UTC)

We aren't all admins Dmn / Դմն 21:07, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I've unprotected for the time being. →Raul654 21:11, Aug 20, 2004 (UTC)

I realize this, as I've stated in my above reasoning for keeping it protected. The process with the old main page involved putting requested changes on THIS talk page, and then sysops would make those changes. No one ever complained about it, becuase it was prefered to the continual revertion of vandalism. I realize it is less likely with the new template system, but vandals are starting to get smart. They see a flaw, and we should plug it, before it becomes a problem noticable to outside visitors. — マイケル ₪ 21:22, Aug 20, 2004 (UTC)

I don't think we should let the recent vandalism cause these templates to be locked. That seems too much like letting the vandals win. If you look at the history (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Template:In_the_news&action=history), you'll see it was reverted within three minutes. I've given reasons for not protecting pages before 1, 2 3, so I won't repeat myself here, but I oppose protection of these templates. Angela . 00:36, Aug 21, 2004 (UTC)

Whilst I do not oppose the protection of most of the main page templates, I think this one should be an exception. The in the news section needs to be able to be edited quickly sometimes (an important story breaks). For this reason all users need to be able to edit. We can deal with vandalism by reverion, temp protection and blocking the vandals. it's annoying bu reasonably easy for admins to revert vandals. For non admins it's slighly harder but not that bad. [[User:Theresa knott|

] 00:48, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Keeping this page editable only to administrators defeats the whole purpose of Biocrawler, and is a complete failure of the system, IMHO. --Cantus 01:50, Aug 21, 2004 (UTC)

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Elmer Bernstein

I tried to correct this edit - Bernstein died at 82, not 92. Can some admin please do this for me? Marcus2 01:18, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The template is currently protected. I'll mention this on the Edit Summary to get some attention from someone. Hope this works. -- PFHLai 01:52, 2004 Aug 21 (UTC)

Thanks to User:Hajor, the problem is now fixed. -- PFHLai 02:28, 2004 Aug 21 (UTC)

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Sports

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Arena Football

This seems really unimportant. Despite the comment for the edit, this is not the popular American football league. The Biocrawler article says that the average attendance of these games is about 10,000, and several news sources report that the ArenaBowl XVIII had an attendance of about 18,000! This, compared to the hundreds of millions of people that follow the European football championships, and the many other important news stories that could be put here. This replaced the Euro news item also, which certainly belongs more than this one does. If the Arena football does not belong alongside the Euro news item, it doesn't belong at all. Are we going to put the minor league baseball championship and the dozen(?) college football bowl games on as well, even when they don't have any major update in their articles? This news item is minor even in the United States, and this is supposed to be an international website. If we're putting minor U.S.-specific news articles in, there are many others much more significant than the Arena Bowl. - Centrx 23:54, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It was on national television on one of the three big networks. San Jose is a city of about 1 million people, Phoenix is also a very large city, therefore it is newsworthy. This was the championship of the league, not a semi-final game. When there is a Euro champion, then it might belong on the main page. Gentgeen 00:15, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

... and EURO 2004 was on, err, pretty much every major network in Europe (except where they conflict on target audience); many many millions of people watching. It's a different scale.

James F. (talk) 00:26, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

If the criteria is that they be finals, then neither should be there. The ArenaBowl is simply not that important, and there are many other, more significant, U.S.-specific things that we could include and they would all be of more relevance to the en.w.o world than the Arena Bowl. Why is that the criteria anyway? It can't be interest, because hundreds of millions of people are interested in the Euro 2004 first-round matches (not even the semi-finals) yet the final had an attendance of only about 18,000 for the Arena Bowl. In other words, if that's the criteria, we should place every Major League Baseball game result on the In the News before we put the Arena Bowl championship. It can't be the quality of the athletes, because many of the top-notch American football players go to the NFL rather than Arena football, yet the Euro 2004 teams are national teams that are some of the best each country can proffer.

It doesn't matter about the size of the city if it's not a popular sport. People play all sorts of obscure sports and it doesn't mean they're popular just because the city the team is in is large. It just doesn't matter what the size of the city is if only 1% of them are interested anyway. And in direct response to this argument, the Czech Republic has over 10 million people and Denmark has over 5 million, and the other countries mentioned have over 37 million people in them combined. The level of interest of the populations of these countries is also significantly more than that in the United States. Quite simply, magnitudes more people in English-speaking countries other than the U.S. are interested in the Euro championship than the Arena Bowl, and I wouldn't be surprised if more people are interested in it than the Arena Bowl in the United States too.

In addition, there has been no significant modification of the articles that are mentioned in the Arena Bowl news item, including the bolded item, which is a criteria for inclusion here.- Centrx 00:37, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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baseball?

And now we have a story about a baseball team as the top story! Why? This really is local news. Filiocht 13:41, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I don't think it's merely local news. Major league baseball has an international fan base. Each team's roster is also filled with players from various countries. The relocation is not just sports news, but also business news, methinks.... It's now old news, so never mind ... -- PFHLai 23:59, 2004 Sep 30 (UTC)

The Major League is not even an international league. And the news is not even about who won this year but only about who hit the ball more often than others. Shall we next start writing about David Beckham's new hairstyle because girls all over the planet fancy him? Get-back-world-respect 00:36, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The Major League is not even an international league. The people of Toronto would like to have a chat with you. --Golbez 02:57, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)

Neither Montreal nor Toronto is in the United States. ..... And major league baseball has two leagues .... never mind. Sigh .... An 84-year old record was broken by a "Japanese import" playing in America ! How can it be related to Beckham's hair ????? Please stop trolling. -- PFHLai 08:30, 2004 Oct 3 (UTC)

Would the French soccer league also qualify as international as Monaco has a team? Come on, in how far does a baseball record affect the world more than Beckham's hair? Get-back-world-respect 00:33, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'd like to apologize for accusing User:Get-back-world-respect of trolling. I no longer think this way. It's more of a case of people not familiar with the baseball world. There are indeed low level news items in baseball at the Beckham hair level. I sincerely and honestly think that the hits record (a feat) and the loss of the one and only franchise in French Canada (end of an era) were not random news, but legitimate top news items, and will likely be featured in "year in review" type TV programming. They're old news now, never mind. -- PFHLai 16:36, 2004 Oct 13 (UTC)

We really need to decide on a sports news policy. We clearly can't have news stories posted by any random about the fantastic Port Klaxonborough Tigers Baseball Team in the Super Major Bowl League and how they've just got a new CEO and snatched the flank winger pitcher batter forward from the reigning Premiers, the New Borg Goats. It seems lately we have had over-excited sports fans posting very localised news which they seem to think is relevant to the whole world just because there are fans in countries other than where it is played. I guarantee you 99% of Australians wouldn't give a toss about anything to do with American baseball. I don't know about other countries, so I can't speak for them. Either way, I feel we really should keep sport out of In The News except for very large-scale news like Superbowl, FIFA World Cup, Paralympics, Olympics, stuff like that. Can we sort out a policy about this? - Mark 05:40, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I am kind of tired of having people at CNN, etc. dictate what I learn about the world. I encourage postings on news items about the latest development in anything significant in Australia, or any country. Please keep us updated and enlightened, and please don't restrict the scope to just politics and natural disasters. Life on this planet includes many other things that can be considered news. Please don't categorically censor out sports news, as sports is part of human culture. Random news ? No. Trivia ? No. Top news items ? Please do. -- PFHLai 16:36, 2004 Oct 13 (UTC)

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"Americanism" vs. "Internationalism"

See /"Americanism" vs. "Internationalism"
Sections:

Recent changes: American and international
Americocentrism
Useless Revert Wars.

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Suggestions for stories

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From Main Page News

This page is about suggestion for Main Page, section In the news:

Week June 2004, from 9th to 13th:

I suggest include information about human cloning, specially in the UK. Seee http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/research/story/0,9865,1280916,00.html (User:Mac)

[[User:Sverdrup|]] 11:22, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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Czesław Miłosz died on August 14, 2004

A great Polish poet, winner of Nobel Prize in Literature in 1980, Czesław Miłosz died on August 14, 2004. Rafał Pocztarski 20:16, 14 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Now posted on the Template:In the news and in Current events. -- PFHLai 15:34, 2004 Aug 15 (UTC)

Thanks. Rafał Pocztarski 00:46, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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Qs about particular stories

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Regis

Is this really news? Well, I suppose it is in some sense, but interesting enough to warrant its inclusion in the hallowed Wikinews box? mat_x 15:24, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I kinda like it; to me, the ITN box is for things that are interesting, but less likely to be found in mainstream press. Example: the Serbian coat of arms and anthem; the new Saturnian moons (picked up mainstream but I saw it here first), etc. Maybe have one story like that, and one "real" story, like Hurricane Charley or the latest in Iraq. That's just my feeling about it.

Put another way: The Regis thing should go into ITN, but it should not go into Current Events. That's straight news. ITN is more of a "hey, look at what neat things just happened" to me. --Golbez 15:44, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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Péter Medgyessy

Should the Péter Medgyessy article be posted on the Template:In the news ? It's been tagged as dubious and "in need of attention" ! -- PFHLai 03:31, 2004 Aug 21 (UTC)

I've just removed it. The Olympics is taking so much space on the MainPage, anyway.... -- PFHLai 04:45, 2004 Aug 22 (UTC)

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A major civil war in Iraq is likely ?

Which article has been updated regarding "The British Royal Institute of International Affairs reports that a major civil war in Iraq is likely, affecting the entire Middle East." ? I can't find it. Should this item be removed from Template:In the news if there are no updates in the relevant articles ? I assume someone is typing. I may check again later today .... -- PFHLai 15:29, 2004 Sep 8 (UTC)

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Serbian evolution crisis

Is this really major news? Looks more like Serbian local news. I don't really think it belongs here. [[User:Anárion| (Anárion)]] 13:15, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Software protests

Just to let everyone know - I have a rough draft for tomorrow's ITN to include the European software protests. It's a bit out of the ordinary in that (a) the image it uses is horizontal instead of verital, and (b) it has an external link (to the official protest site). →Raul654 18:04, Apr 13, 2004 (UTC)

I removed this:

Numerous websites close in protest of European Union legislation to expand software patents. Offical protest site (http://swpat.ffii.org/).

I think this issue is insignificant (especially when compared to all the other articles). Would you see this on the front page of a paper newspaper? This is not Slashdot. And don't forget:

Please do not add stories to this page that have not had their articles updated yet in light of the story. Do not add links to stubs or poor quality articles.

Kent Wang 04:52, 14 Apr 2004 (UTC)

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Canadian election

Oh great God of the "In the news" section, Centrix: I will be adding the election to the news in roughly 14 hours from now, and I would ask that you don't revert it. Perhaps the Serbian election is important for now, but it's not as important as the Canadian election. In spite of popular belief, Canada does have more people than Serbia, plus the election page for the Canadian election rivals no other. (Just look at how big they are!). Earl Andrew 02:59, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with Canada itself. The fact is that there are hundreds of national-level elections worldwide in election years and it is simply not possible to put them all "In the News", and foolish to have two news items for each, one before advising of the forthcoming election and one after reporting the results. The Canadian elections do not compare to the Serbian elections in significance, and it has nothing to do with population. The reason the Serbian election is important is because there was great fear that the ultranationalist ally of Milosevic would, if elected, lead the nation back to the violent and ethnically divisive past. This is a party that advocates uniting all Serb lands under a single "Great Serb state". That effects a whole lot of people, many more than the Canadian elections. Under his leadership, by the way, many people were killed and hundreds of thousands of people were displaced from their homes, resulting in NATO intervention and further violence. Unlike in Serbia, there is no international peacekeeping force from 30 different countries threatened by violence in Canada (indeed, in this way, the populations affected by this election far exceeds that affected by the Canadian election). There is no danger of armed conflict dependent on the outcome of the elections in Canada. The people of the United States do not fear ethnic cleansing coming from the north. This is not the first test of democracy in Canada in 60 years, and one after several failed votes. I will not so fully exemplify the Pakistani resignation, but it is a significant indication of the current balance of power in the nation. That is, the army seems to be the de facto power. This is a nation with nuclear weapons in a longstanding feud with India; it is in a crucial position in housing and fighting al Qaeda and the Taliban. These are particularly unusual and international situations, unlike that of the Canadian election. This is the reason that both these news items have been in the top two stories of Google News, a fair indicator of the importance news outlets have placed on it. It is the reason it is the top story in the BBC website's Europe section. It is the reason that it will be on page A3 instead of page A20 of tomorrow's paper.

So, I don't see how you can think the Canadian election is more important than either of these, and I thoroughly don't understand how you can think that the Serbian election only has importance "now" yet the Canadian election has some longer-standing importance. From the issues listed in the article, it doesn't look like any of them are important internationally. The only one of international effect (Iraq war) is no more important than the several other nations that supported the war and have no troops there. Anyway, I hope you at least see that its silly to put a news article about something that hasn't even happened yet, when it isn't of a groundbreaking nature and it is quite clear when it's going to happen and that the article is going to be modified quite substantially. Should people read the article before the election and then wade through it again after the election after its modified in the news? No, as it says many places on the site, "Biocrawler is not a news report." The article is not yet of an encyclopedic threshhold at which past facts are recorded, at which the facts of the matter are, if not fully documented in the encyclopedia, still determined in reality, etched in the stone of time. - Centrx 06:38, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I do not agree about the importance of Serbian election. It's primarily important to US media because of the longstanding past conflict between US and Milosevic. In Europe (where I'm from), we have had very little coverage of Serbian election (about as little as Canadian election). I'm afraid that "events of international significance" are getting substituted by "international events significant to US media". Andris 03:25, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)

The "In the news" currently has a rep on the Canadian election stating "give them one short, 154, of exactly half the seats in the House of Commons." - maybe that could be "give them 154, one short..." - sounds better -- Aparajit 09:39, Jun 29, 2004 (UTC)

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Re: "Why do you keep re-inserting "at age 95"?

Sorry, User:Simonides, i don't mean to keep editing what you have posted. It's not another silly edit war.

IMO, "... has died aged 95 ..." really sounds awkward to me, hence my changes. I feel strongly that "...has died at age 95 ..." is better ("... has died at the age of 95 ..." is even better, but it's too long), and I wonder if the past participle "aged" is misused here. I also thought about ending the sentence after the word "died" to 'weasel' out. (The place of death is not important, anyway.) However, I am not going to edit it again, in case my grammar is wrong.

Have a nice day, or evening wherever you are.

-- PFHLai 06:31, 2004 Aug 6 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation; I guess it's merely a matter of personal choice. The alliteration in "died aged" could be avoided, but IMO it's at least tighter than "at age" - the latter seems more appropriate for youthful accomplishments, ex. "won a medal at only 17". -- Simonides 06:47, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The OED says that the "aged" terminology is used specifically for a horse. Note also that this is not a wine, etc. - Centrx 20:59, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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Image of TV Screen?

Is the poorly named photo Image:Pict1797.jpg appropriate for this template? I have no objections to its content except for the fact that it is not even a screenshot of a TV frame but a photo of a TV screen. — ~~Mr. Grinch~~ 33451 (Talk) 19:09, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ugly pic, eh ? You're right, Mr. Grinch. Thank you for pointing that out. At the time, I just wanted sth new to bump off the 2004RNC logo. I shouldn't have posted that, not on the MainPage. :-( Someone has fixed the image problem for me ..... -- PFHLai 05:13, 2004 Aug 31 (UTC)

Okay, I'm glad to see that someone has replaced it now. — 33451 | Talk 18:53, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

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School Hostage Situation in Russia

Up until now (1820 UTC) ITN has described 100 people as hostage in the school in Russia. I have changed this to "between 100 and 400" due to a conflict of information: the BBC is currently saying 150 people, and has done so throughout the day; Reuters is saying "up to 400"; FoxNEWS were saying "between 120 and 400". For more figures please browse through the descriptions at Google News (http://news.google.com/?hl=en&ncl=www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml%3Ftype%3DtopNews%26storyID%3D6126892). --[[User:OldakQuill|Oldak Quill]] 18:25, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

At this point, all figures are guesstimates. I've changed it to 'hundreds'. Updates can go to the article with boldfaced internal link.

BTW, is there any way to make the Ossetian flag show better ? Add a border ? gray background ? Right now the white top isn't showing well on the faint pink background and I don't know how to fix it. -- PFHLai 19:37, 2004 Sep 1 (UTC)

I thought that the Coat of Arms now shown belongs to South Ossetia instead of North Ossetia..... Can someone confirm this, please ? -- PFHLai 00:42, 2004 Sep 2 (UTC)

Oh, schieße, you're right. Someone should change it back. I don't have time, sorry. blankfaze | (беседа!) 02:12, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Changed. -- ChrisO 09:02, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Can we have the updates in the article but not so much on the Template:In the news, please ? IMO, there is way too much info right now, and I think we should only have 'highlights' or headlines on the template for the MainPage. -- PFHLai 13:05, 2004 Sep 3 (UTC)

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Space bias

<satire>There is a space bias in the ITN section. 2 out of 4 articles are about space. I demand that they be removed and something relating to the real world be added. </satire> Gentgeen 02:27, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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Remember the guidelines

NOTE: Any bolded item that appears on the Main Page must be updated and listed on its corresponding subject area page before being listed on the Main Page.

I'm seeing too many stories that don't follow this, especially the Supreme Court story. I nearly removed it, but that is a worthy story -- so would someone please make or update an article on it? --Golbez 19:00, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)

I agree that the Supreme Court topic is important, however, I would prefer if we could restrict the five most important current news to events that already happened rather than include announcements. Get-back-world-respect 00:33, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Two of the current stories, on Israel and on the Nobel Prize, follow this rule only nominally. The Israel story links to a timeline, in which the update is basically the sentence inserted on this page. The Nobel Prize story also links to a list (of each year's Nobel Prize), where the update is again almost a duplicate of the story from this page. This does not seem adequate. Mateo SA | talk 23:31, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)

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"Pictured right"

Golbez removed the reference "pictured right", saying "we never had 'pictured right' before and i don't remember it being discussed.. seems to artificially lengthen the item" — actually, see Image notation above. Mateo SA | talk 23:17, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, okay, I was wrong. :P This has already been pointed out to me. Stop rubbing it in, meanies. :) --Golbez 23:37, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, it's often been left out, but ought to be in there. - Centrx 19:35, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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Baseball?

The current main story is something about baseball. I don't think anyone outside the US really cares about the happenings in that league and, while perhaps news-worthy, I can't see how it's the headline story above "Belarusian opposition leader Anatoly Lebedko is allegedly severely beaten by police while protesting the country's recent referendum allowing President".

Main point being: can we avoid US-bias in the news section, please? violet/riga (t) 22:08, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't think its newsworthy until after tonight's game when, if the redsox win, will be the first time a team's come back from three games down to win. And, considering a large percent of the world's internet traffic is American, I think a "big news" story in America, whether it is sports or not, deserves a top news posting. [[User:Tomf688|Tom]] 22:49, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)

P.S.: I've seen soccer news in the "top news" section regarding European players/events I've never heard of, so I don't see why American Sports should be neglected. [[User:Tomf688|Tom]] 22:49, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)

Also, Violet/Riga, I think a lot of people in Japan, Latin America, and other places are going to care about baseball. For us baseball people, the idea of the Red Sox beating the Yankees to the World Series flies right in the face of accepted precedent. See Curse of the Bambino.

People get beaten by police every day. The Red Sox have yet to beat the Yankees to the World Series. Sekicho 03:18, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

I've posted the basic history of the story below. Perhaps the fact that the Red Sox will go the World Series is news, but the initial story about the Red Sox beating some baseball statistic seems of extraordinarily minor interest to me. I would think only a baseball fanatic would be interested in that. Mateo SA | talk 04:50, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

It's just the reverse, actually. Every year, two teams qualify for the world series — that's practically commonplace! What made this such a big news story, far beyond the Boston market, is that the Red Sox won despite 1) their rotten luck over the years, particularly vs. the Yankees 2) the unprecedented 0-3 deficit they overcame. These transformed a statistic into an amazing story — not the other way around. Granted, the Tuesday versions below may have been premature; but the Wednesday version, the one you endorse, is missing the story and therefore totally bloodless. Doops 22:01, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

History of the story:
Tuesday: In baseball's American League Championship Series, the Boston Red Sox defeat the New York Yankees to become the first Major League Baseball team to recover from a 3-0 deficit to force a seventh game.

In game six of Major League Baseball's American League Championship Series, the Boston Red Sox defeat the New York Yankees, the first time any team in Major League Baseball history has recovered from a three-game series deficit to force a seventh game.

Wednesday: The Boston Red Sox defeat the New York Yankees in game seven of Major League Baseball's American League Championship Series, earning a trip to the World Series.

At any rate, I would be willing to wager that more people, in more countries, on more continents, care about the Yankees-Red Sox series than a reorganization of the Swedish government. No statistics, but just a strong hunch. ;) - Sekicho 19:03, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

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Ashlee Simpson

This certainly isn't of international interest to be on the front page - in fact, do most people in the US even care?? I've removed it anyway. sjorford 13:13, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I added this entry and I do NOT agree with your removal. The guidelines specify that "It should ideally be a story of an international importance, or at least interest." The entry fits that description, it may not be of incredible importance, but it is newsworthy, and among youngsters, I will assure you, defenitely important. Previously we have had items about baseball, I can tell you that a large part of the globe really does not care at all baseball. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\^talk]] 13:33, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

Also, look at the section as it is now, we are only reporting very heavy negative news items, we should lighten up and also report on lighter events that DO interest people, and put things in perspective. I am adding the story back, if it is deleted/reverted again by someone else, I will leave it at that. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\^talk]] 13:37, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

I agree that every thing on their is pretty negative but that is, sadly, the nature of news today. If you can find other happy news then great, but Ashlee Simpson doesn't even merit a comment on the BBC entertainment page [1] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/default.stm) and it's really not that big a deal - most youngsters here don't really know who she is anyway! As for baseball see the section above discussing that. violet/riga (t) 13:49, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Very well, I cave, but I'd like to add that there is defenitely plenty "happy" news to report, but it is in Man's nature to weigh more important to negative aspects of life than to the positive aspects. This makes it seem like negative events are actually more important, while they are most certainly not. Actually weighing the importance of baseball against lip syncing artists is obviously hard, but then why not just cycle the news faster, instead of only keeping the "most important" items for days on the main page. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\^talk]] 13:55, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

PS. The event is the top news item on People magazine's website (http://www.people.com/).

Biocrawler is not People magazine :-) sjorford 14:15, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Neither is it CNN. You probably know as well as I that plenty people care more about what Madonna is up to lately than about yet another natural disaster. Instead of bombing the main page with disaster related events we should also put shocking lightfooted news items on it. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\^talk]] 15:08, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

I think it should be more CNN than People, at least the Current events section. I agree that some more happy news should be found for the main page, but I just don't think this is it - surely there are internationally notable good news events that aren't about comedy variety shows? sjorford 15:35, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You have a good point that news should be cycled faster - for example, the Chuestsu Earthquake is no longer on the main page of most news sites and I don't think keeping it there will add any further info to the articles. Papa Wemba is a big story for Africa but with few African editors it doesn't get much of a mention. Perhaps some sort of Current Events Wikiproject could be set up with controbutors working on the In The News and current events pages along with the articles in need of updates after a news item hits. violet/riga (t) 14:20, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, maybe meta:Wikinews will solve this issue. It will most likely have a main page with categories of news, as Google news (http://news.google.com) has. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\^talk]] 15:08, Oct 25, 2004 (UTC)

IMHO, a better choice for an upbeat news item would be the success of the Brazilian rocket, which blasted off the same day Ashlee Simpson was caught lip-singing. It's a more newsworthy feat. Too bad the Wikipage doesn't exist yet. Wish I knew more about rockets to start the page ..... -- PFHLai 16:54, 2004 Oct 25 (UTC)

[edit]

"Regis Philbining" ?

“Sarah Michelle Gellar admits to charges of Regis Philbining her parents.” — What does this mean? There's nothing about what this might mean on Sarah Michelle Gellar. The edit summary say it's a test, is it a joke or something? --64.36.233.199 21:44, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

My test had to take place on the Main Page, it was a test of the main page. I found a glitch earlier that took to the “View Source” for the main page when I typed in http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?Title=Template:In_the_news&action=edit and I thought that Template:In the news might be protected now. Also, I was testing how long it took for the so-called “vandalism”—It was not vandalism—to be reverted. 10 minutes. Not bad. Let's not make a big deal out of this, it was a one-time test. RFC me if you will, but let's leave it at that. — El Chico! ^Talk 12:12, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You could have just asked somebody else first… sjorford 14:26, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ask somebody else what? If there was a glitch? How long it took for a revert? Some things just have to be tested…this was one of them. — El Chico! ^π 15:47, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Let me put it simply...it's the Main Page. It's the most viewed page on WP, and the first one that all casual visitors see. It doesn't look good if our "In the news" section contains gibberish. As for what you could ask...well, yes, just ask if anyone else is seeing the same problems as you. Who knows, perhaps somebody else already tested it? We're a community, you know, people do talk to each other. sjorford 08:06, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit]

Radiation leak

I hope our only source for the radiation leak story isn't an anonymous question on the Biocrawler:Reference desk. Why is this here, where did it come from? Rhobite 15:40, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

Nothing on Sky, nothing on TCH (major Irish newspaper company), nothing on the Irish Times, etc.

Hoax, anyone?

Kiand 15:49, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit]

Election irregularities

2004 U.S. Election controversies and irregularities

I must say that I'm concerned that this issue is being discussed on IRC and not on this talk page. This has never been the way we do things on Biocrawler, and gives us no transparency in our actions. That said, it appears that the main objection is that this is "not in the news". It didn't take me long to find that ABC had an article at [2] (http://news.google.com/news?q=voting%20irregularities&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wn). And now USAToday has an article at [3] (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techpolicy/2004-11-03-evote-trouble_x.htm) - Ta bu shi da yu 02:14, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You're citeing one article from Nov 3, and one from Nov 5 and still trying to make a case that this is "in the news"? -- Netoholic @ 02:23, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)

It may not be in "the mainstream news" but they are highly POV and not likely to want to be the first to highlight this... anybody remember Watergate? How can major discrepancies and unusual irregularities, and possibly even tampering and fraud in the actual vote-tallying and collection of votes in an election be not as significant as burglarising the opponents to get some edge in an election. It's of huge importance. We don't have a policy that says we only post news on the ftont page if (x news source) posts it on their front page. BBC, CNN and ABC have amply shown they have bias towards both the Democratic republican party and the democratic Republican party, which IMO are two halves of the same coin.Pedant 18:11, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)

As this "story" is not front page on any major news network, it does not belong on our front page. Please view:

-- Netoholic @ 02:20, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)

Indeed, ITN goes on the front page. Like it or not, this is not front page news. A good guide is http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/default.stm ed g2s • talk 02:29, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Please point to the policy where the news story must be front page. I think you are pushing a POV when you remove this news. I notice that the news article about Émile Louis is also not front page news either. - Ta bu shi da yu 02:24, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

{{sofixit}} -- Netoholic @ 02:31, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)

What's to fix? That's a news story! - Ta bu shi da yu 02:37, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think you're pushing a POV quite clearly when you promote this news—are you promoting it because you think it's truly newsworthy, or because you're a political partisan? The latter seems more likely. That in itself might be acceptable if it were a decent article, which it is not. It's based on amateurish statisical correlations from which unwarranted causal conclusions are drawn, mostly either original research or something put up on some random website. There are no rigorous statistical analyses cited in the article. Look, I voted for Kerry, and I think there might well have been vote fraud. But this article doesn't present a reasonable case for that, and what case it does present is mostly original research. --Delirium 02:27, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

Hardly. I don't reside in the U.S. This is a news story. Don't assume bad faith on my behalf! - Ta bu shi da yu 02:37, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think that a story being not on the front page of other media is in no way a criterion we should use for choosing front page news. If the election has been tampered with, is it any surprise that mainstream corporate news doesn't cover it?. I absolutely believe that the election tampering is one of the 3 most important stories on any day since November 2 2004. That's not to say I think that our article is presentable at all, it isn't yet. But there is enough info available from 'mainstream sources' to show a strong indication that something is amiss. over 90,000 votes discarded in Ohio? A discrepancy in the amount of provisional votes of over 200,000 votes? Precincts that reported more votes for Bush than the number of voters? Hell, I don't care who is President of the U.S., I voted for a Political prisoner for president that could never be legally inaugurated. I'd be ready for revolution in the streets regardless of whether Bush beat Kerry. But I hate to see the wikipedia look like a bunch of fools that can't decide whether it's 'In the news' that there are allegations of irregularities in electing what could arguably be considered the world's most powerful man, whether or not the decline in his "sentence-by-sentence speaking skills" over the last decade indicate a "cognitive deficit symptomatic of pre-senile dementia" as was reported in Atlantic Monthly. Maybe he'll suddenly freak out and declare unilateral peace on the entire world.Pedant 05:26, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)

[edit]

Please don't edit war or NPOV-stamp this page

This page is included on the frontpage of Biocrawler. It looks very silly if a story keeps appearing and disappearing, or worse, an NPOV dispute header is shown right on our Main Page. The people working on this template are all experienced enough to know this.

This matter seems to be about whether or not the story about the election irregularities should be reported here. That's a matter that needs to be discussed. That's what the talk page is for. Please try to find a consensus by developing a coherent policy on current events, so that we can all agree to abide by it. No controversial edits should be made until the matter is amicably resolved here, either by vote or by consensus.--Eloquence *

Considering that Netoholic tells me that this was all discussed on IRC, you should understand my annoyance. - Ta bu shi da yu 02:37, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I certainly haven't discussed it on IRC, but on Biocrawler. See Talk:2004 U.S. Election controversies and irregularities. --Delirium 02:38, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

This needs to be talked on THIS page. The reverts were happening on this template. - Ta bu shi da yu 02:40, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Whether or not policy should be discussed on IRC as a general rule, I did so, after reverting the template twice. I eventually reverted myself after Ed G2s spoke with me on IRC. I intend to play no further role in this article's placement or lack thereof on ITN, and personally I think a fair amount of NPOV could be done. If anyone can find a site that expresses a reasoned belief that no tampering occured, it should be added as an external link to the article.

On another note, edit warring on the main page is to be avoided in general, and I wish I'd been more sensitive about that during the mixed reports re Arafat earlier this week. Pakaran (ark a pan) 03:47, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit]

Requests for edits during election controversy and vanunu page protections

I've protected the page due to an edit dispute over the Vanunu story. Thank you. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (hopefully!)]] 14:49, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

Would some admin or sysop or whoever has the power to do so, please restore the word "controversial" to the Alberto Gonzalez story [i.e. so that it reads "controversial White House Counsel" or suchlike]? It's not POV to say that his tenure as counsel was controversial — i'ts just plain fact — and that point is a lot more newsworthy than his status as (potentially) the first Hispanic Attorney-General. Doops 06:14, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Um, I actually posted the above comment last night while the page was page-protected over the election results issue. Since then, it's apparently come off protection and gone back on again — but somehow nobody's heeded my plaintive request. If you read the article on Alberto Gonzalez it should be perfectly clear that he was a controversial White House Counsel. Doops 17:10, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Please change the word scientist to technician in the Vanunu bullet. Thanks. Jewbacca 14:46, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

Why Neutrality (who recently featured a Israeli flag on his page), Jewbacca, and Viriditas want to censor information about Vanunu is a mystery of astronomical proportions. Admins should avoid conflict of interests in protecting pages - Xed 15:12, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Removing bias is not "censorship". You posted an editorial, not a news headline. The description you offered deviated from objectivity in a number of key areas. One, you claimed he was a scientist to bolster his credibility, when in fact he was a subordinate technician. Two, you claimed that he gave an interview (no evidence of which was given) where he made a wild claim about Israel and JFK, (an insane claim since JFK was the biggest supporter of Israel ever, at that time). Thirdly, you tried to connect his arrest to your claim, and by doing so you invented a news story that did not otherwise exist. Lastly, you seem to be incapable of recognizing your bias, which I find highly disturbing for someone who runs a project devoted to eliminating bias. Physician, heal thyself. --Viriditas 21:14, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

How am I "censoring information about Vanunu," Xed? [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (hopefully!)]] 14:58, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

Tell me where I stated he was a "scientist". And are you telling me he didn't give an interview? - Xed 08:02, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Please put:

Israeli police arrests recently freed Israeli nuclear technician Mordechai Vanunu for allegedly passing on "classified information to unnamed international parties".

for the Vanunu bullet as this is a more accurate description. Jewbacca 14:50, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

Xed's entry for Vanunu - "Israeli nuclear technician Mordechai Vanunu is arrested for allegedly passing on "classified information to unnamed international parties" three months after saying in an interview that Israel was behind John F. Kennedy's asassination." is totally unsupported by any news article I've seen (check http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=vanunu+kennedy&ie=UTF-8&filter=0 ). It's true that Biocrawler:In the news section on the Main Page doesn't say "don't post fringe theories" but Xed's edits certainly go against the spirit of the guidelines, i.e. that news stories should be well substantiated. In the light of his/her repeated reversions I've protected ITN temporarily. -- ChrisO 11:48, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You didn't look very hard -

Information Clearinghouse (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6550.htm)

Pravda (http://english.pravda.ru/printed.html?news_id=13559)

Al-Jazeera (http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=2845)

Indymedia (http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2004/07/295523.html)

You should unprotect and revert now. - Xed 12:06, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Mainstream media, which those are not. And there's no "should" about it. -- ChrisO 13:10, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

So first it's "totally unsupported by any news article", now it's not Mainstream media! I assume you mean the sources above aren't owned by corrupt media magnates. Below is a source that is. - Xed 13:32, 12 Nov 2004

Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1090725927691&p=1078027574121)

Please don't distort my words. I said "totally unsupported by any news article I've seen", i.e. those indexed by Google News, which does actually spider a few sources that "aren't owned by corrupt media magnates". Your Jerusalem Post article does refer to Vanunu's theory on the JFK assassination, but it doesn't support in any way your attempt to link this claim and his recent arrest. (Please also make sure you sign and date your posts - thanks.) -- ChrisO 13:54, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"totally unsupported by any news article", "not Mainstream media" and now "doesn't support in any way your attempt to link this claim and his recent arrest."!! I thought I was discussing this with someone who had some intellectual honesty, but I see you just move the goalposts whenever it suits you. - Xed 14:12, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The point: DID VANUNU EVER SAY THAT? I think the answer is yes. However groundless it could be, THE ANSWER IS YES as reported by the above news agencies. Did that cause his arrest? Maybe not. But that particular speech could be a good start of closer scrutiny. By the way, if Pravda and Al Jazeera are not mainstream, what else is mainstream? Did you mean only papers printed in the U.S. by a big fat deep-pocketed and ultra patriotic boss are mainstream? -- Toytoy 15:24, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

[edit]

Gonzales

Somebody has again reverted out the word "controversial" used to describe Alberto Gonzales' tenure as White House counsel, calling it "inherently POV." I don't see how this can be the case: the word "controversial" means that something has led to controversy — which is simply factually true about Gonzales. And it's not irrelevant to the AG nomination; the AG is a position within the legal system, and it's Gonzales' legal advice which raised controversy. To my ears, that word isn't inherently biased; but if my ears are faulty, somebody please suggest an alternative.

Anyway, rather than starting an edit war by restoring that word, I've instead removed the mention that, if confirmed, he'll be the first Hispanic AG. If our hands are somehow so tied that we can't include a real newsworthy issue, then we certainly shouldn't include feel-good fluff. Doops 02:33, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree that "controversial" is neutral and relevant to Gonzales, but I'm not sure it belongs in this template. He is a controversial figure, but putting that in here is like putting it in the first sentence of a news article. What information you choose to elevate to that status is in a way POV. Rhobite 03:09, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

[edit]

Proposed new criterion for In The News stories

I've added a new criterion for In The News in response to the recent flap over adding fringe claims on Mordechai Vanunu to the template:

The article must be well substantiated and covered by the mainstream media (i.e. no fringe sources, unsubstantiated blog entries etc). Stories should be findable on at least two mainstream sources through a Google News search.

What do people think? Comments to Biocrawler talk:In the news section on the Main Page please! -- ChrisO 13:20, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I worry that (whoever) will either not accept this standard or not accept that their addition doesn't meet it. For instance, Vanunu's JFK theory can be substantiated but clearly does not belong. I suppose it was only a matter of time before this template became the site of serious edit wars. Very Verily 13:58, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The Vanunu/Kennedy story meets those criteria so youll have to move the goalposts again! - Xed 14:29, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If the mainstream sources have to be English and published in the U.S. or U.K., they can be all more or less biased to a certain side. The NY Times dare not say much to the invasion of Iraq even until today.

Personally, I do not believe in Vanunu's JFK or KFC or whatever conspiracy theory on the ground that he was not supposed to know it when he was working for the Israeli government. At best, he could only retell the story that he was told. That means his words are not quite believable if without other evidence. But if that speech DID partly cause his arrest (who knows), it is worthy to report.

Anyway, mainstream itself is not ALWAYS a good criterion. -- Toytoy 15:06, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

That's just it -- there is absolutely no evidence that his conspiratorial comments about JFK caused his arrest. None. --Viriditas 00:17, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit]

Côte d'Ivoire

The term Anti-French violence is linked to Anti-French sentiment which itself is a redirect to Anti-French sentiment in the United States, not in any way relevent. How can I edit the page to remove this mistake? --212.76.39.1

I removed the listing for now, because the article had a single line of information on the current violence—less than the summary did. It looks silly when we have a news story with a bolded link inviting people to click through for information, and then there isn't actually any information there. IMO, the sequence should go: 1) See a news story; 2) write a detailed article about it; 3) add it to "in the news". People seem to do 3 before 2 though. --Delirium 21:27, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

No. The sequence is 1) See a news story; 2) update relevant Biocrawler articles (or possibly create a new one); 3) add it to Current events.

4) For the same or a different user later, once the item has been on current events for a bit (for people to amend): add to "in the news".

If its a really important story and people are really sure of themselves (one thinks the updated content is good and encyclopaedic), then 3 and 4 can probably safely be merged.

There are of course no hard and fast rules (as with everything in Biocrawler), but I believe the above fits with the guidelines, and it seems logical to me. zoney ♣ talk 21:45, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit]

U.S domestic news

Could the murder trial item, which is clearly U.S. domestic news, however much it may be an important story, be removed from the template? I'm reluctant to do so myself as the page is protected, and I do not want to break policy or raise heckles. zoney ♣ talk 21:52, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've removed it. Biocrawler is not Court TV. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (hopefully!)]] 21:57, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC) (a proud American)

I'm ambivalent on this. When the Marc Dutroux murder trial in Belgium came out with a verdict, we had that on the template for a while. Major domestic news is of international interest from at least a perspective of "this is an issue drawing a great deal of attention in [Belgium / the US / etc.]". --Delirium 10:37, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

I've never heard of that trial and it's not international. If it is so important in the US then the reason should be mentioned, otherwise it just sounds like a normal murder case. violet/riga (t) 11:28, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit]

Fallujah

Reports indicate we now have full control of Fallujah (Woohoo!). Please update. - Calmypal 01:11, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)

"We"? The page has been protected. Besides, ITN only includes news items where the relevant articles have been updated to reflect the news. — David Remahl 01:34, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit]

Ignoran-uh...Americentrism

Look, I understand that most Americans and most non-Americans here are constantly fed garbage, trivia, and inanities raised to the aura of worldwide significance, or GO USA GO-style news on TV to soothe their general complacence, ignorance and/or lack of curiosity, and I'm tired of arguing about this again and again, but can we please just set up a policy that will restrict ITN editors from filling the template with (usually idiotic) US-only news items, no matter what the justifications?

Please look at the difference between the template a half-hour ago and now, result of the efforts of yours truly: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Template%3AIn_the_news&diff=0&oldid=7462060

I hope there is some agreement that it is possible, with very little effort (all the stories were found on a single site, BBC news) to find something both relevant and truly international, instead of: #1Death of obscure US rapper, #2Health of members of the US administration, #3 General camaraderie between the US administration and other frat boys.

I am not keen to read any more boring and stupid replies like "this is a mostly American site, if you don't like it, leave", I want to know if any admin are going to do something about this, because if they can't, I am going to change all the templates about ITN and several other pages to make sure this doesn't keep happening - let Wikicivility, policies and all that trash go screw itself. -- Simonides 21:35, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

By the way, if you're some sort of red-necked conservative reactionary, please do me a favour and read these messages before replying to the above because I'm sure some of them already encompass your unoriginal reply: Americocentrism, Insular headlines. -- Simonides 21:43, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I take offense to this remark. Retract it please. --Golbez 23:26, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)

I don't see how the piece on the Bhopal disaster is "news." It sounds like something that might be more useful as a featured article. - Sekicho 21:53, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)

It is news because the reporter that went to the site of the disaster tested the water and found it contained some 500 times the highest permissible contamination level, contrary to the claims of Union Carbide that opened up the site again in 98 claiming it was free of contamination. -- Simonides 22:13, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Simonides, I agree with you, but name-calling is not going to help matters...We all have to work together, americentric or not, so we should try to keep open communication channels, not clouded by personal or general attacks. That said, great work on the template! — David Remahl 22:35, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You're right, I already regret my condescending tone, but coming across the same behaviour every other day, looking at the good efforts to work against bias sink back into the same routine, does not help matters either. That said, I would like to see some actual change to the editing instructions, as I'm not looking to exchange arguments and/or insults etc. (which apart from being unpleasant and obstructive is an enormous waste of time.) -- Simonides 22:53, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If enough people are monitoring, editing and amending ITN I really don't think it matters. I actually enjoy trying to find articles and current news events that can allow me to kick off the Americentric additions. violet/riga (t) 22:58, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Violet, I find that with very few exceptions (you, Jiang and perhaps the occasional passer-by) the people editing this page fall into the same pattern. Notice the current efforts by Neutrality to remove the Bhopal incident, which has affected and continues to affect thousands, with the Iraqi conflict news, which dominates the headlines all the time in any case. While I have plenty of sympathy for the other thousands affected by the Iraq war, I don't have any for those editors (or anyone else, in fact) who keep emphasizing the importance of victims publicized in the news over those who don't get any airtime (notice the complete oblivion Afghans have sunk into because the media doesn't care as much anymore). -- Simonides 23:30, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It's true that it is quite depressing that people forget that there are so many wars raging (over 100 at this moment, I believe) and that we are so media-led. Unfortunately that often dictates what we know about and thus what we can write about. The heart-condition of some US politician (yes, I know his role) is hardly massive news when considering the enormity of other activities around the globe. violet/riga (t) 23:42, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

And who effects the enormity of other activities? Dick Cheney does. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (hopefully!)]] 05:07, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

DO YOU MEAN TO CALL HIS GREATNESS THE Ol' Dirty Bastard OBSCURE? YOU FILTH! - [[User:Blankfaze|]] 05:47, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit]

Bhopal story.

The Bhopal story should be in the anniversary section, not 'In the news' section, I'm going to replace it with Iran's halt on nuclear enrichment. Neutralisation 02:41, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Did you read the BBC article like you were asked to? There's a slight possibility you'd know what you were talking about if you did. -- Simonides 21:30, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The post deals with a new investigation into poisoning occuring right now. It's unquestionably news. --119 04:15, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit]

Protected?

Can we get this template unprotected please, a protected news template seems highly unproductive. It seems to me the ODB vandalism was coming from one single person using different user names, I think the solution would be blocking that user, not protecting the news page. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\^talk]] 08:29, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

I agree; protection of ITN should only be for a short time, long enough to block the vandal. --Golbez 10:27, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

[edit]

Atlantis

The evidence is is not as strong as the team is making out and this would be what the 2451th time that atlantis has been found. The team leader makes some slightly odd claims

"People who dismiss this have not really done their homework, skeptics don't really understand. To understand the enigma of Atlantis you have to have good knowledge of ancient history, Biblical references, the Sumerian culture and their tablets and so on," said Sarmast. "[4] (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=scienceNews&storyID=6806129)

Biblical references? Where?

In short this isn't really news and ashould not be the top item.Geni 11:50, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I disagree, the entry adheres to all the guidelines, international interest, it is being reported by some major news agencies, the article surely warrants updating, which has been done, it is listed on current events as well. Whether Atlantis has actually been found is hard to prove right now, but that doesn't mean it's not news, also, what does Sarmast pointing to Biblical references have to do with this being news, it is unclear what point you are trying to make. I'd like to point out that there is a general tendency to value news where deaths are involved more important than anything else, I'd like our news section to be somewhat balanced. Further more, it being the top item has nothing to do with importance, the order is by date, although entries where no image is available can be placed lower. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\^talk]] 12:10, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

The reason that quote is of interest is that it shows all the clasic signs of junk science. Attacking sceptics by claiming they don't understand and making vage refuerces to documents which you don't make precises enough to be of any use (ok the bible is reasonably precise but I've read thorugh it and I can't recall a mention of atlantis anywhere).Geni 16:10, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

ITN, and wikipedia, is not a news site. We are neither obligated nor supposed to have the latest breaking international news. What is more important is news items relevant to an encyclopedia, and Atlantis is certianly one of those. --Golbez 12:26, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

Exactly, the goal of the ITN section is to illustrate the news and to point people to encyclopedic information, which is usually somewhat static, historically oriented, that is actually changing because of recent events. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\^talk]] 13:03, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

This is ridiculous, do you know how many times they've "found atlantis". This is not front-page international news. ed g2s • talk 13:30, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Then how is a fairly randomly timed statistic on the Iraq war effort in Fallujah front-page news? Do you know how many soldiers and civilians have already been killed in Iraq, not to mention in all the other wars currently going on (about 100 according to statements above). Atlantis is of international interest, it spurs peoples interest, whether is can currently be proven or not. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\^talk]] 13:45, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

The BBC now also has an article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4011545.stm) on the discovery, note that hey also point out the controversy, that does not make it any less newsworthy. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\^talk]] 14:50, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

The BBC story is in a section on "Also in the news" on the Europe subpage, hardly front page news. Fallujah is front page news on just about everywhere. Compare google news: "atlantis": 883 results (157 since yesterday), "fallujah": 61,000 results (3,540 since yesterday). It's not front-page news, and it shouldn't be our front-page news ed g2s • talk 15:02, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Google news is not a guide of importance. Its simply a guide of whats reported. See [5] (http://h2odev.law.harvard.edu/ezuckerman/) for an illustration of news media bias. - Xed 16:41, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Please read the above comment by Golbez, it sums it up nicely, we do not have to report just the most important breaking events, we should report on internationally interesting events that have a decent Biocrawler article that is thereby put in a new perspective. Further more, what is wrong with having a fast news cycle, our rotation speed on Did you know is way faster than the news section. We should focus on adding entries, not removing anything that might just not be important enough for the entire world population. -- [[User:Solitude|Solitude\^talk]] 15:09, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

But the Atlantis article is not put in a new perspective. It has gained 3 lines and a link. IT already has a huge number of atlantis found stories mentioned.Geni 16:18, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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How to edit the template

Look for headlines on the BBC or Yahoo News pertaining to regions other than the US, US areas of interest (Iran, North Korea, etc) and UK.
Help to avoid systemic bias by finding important articles about these ignored regions, unless there is a VERY important article that relates to a completely new event rather than some record in a long, ongoing process (ex. invasion) in the above named regions. Remember that not more than one headline per country is allowed.
Update as per guidelines, etc.