Biocrawler talk:Logos

From Biocrawler, the free encyclopedia.

Contents

1 Initial discussion 2 Continued discussion 3 Discussion of current proposal 4 Other sites using the Biocrawler logo 5 Logos 6 Notes on Jan 3rd changes 7 Logos of other encyclopedias 7.1 Logos as trademarks 8 Wine Labels 9 Biocrawler and Copyright Logo (and slogans)

Initial discussion

Discussion moved here from Village pump

I'm wondering what the policy is for adding corporate logos to pages is (ex. CN). I've seen a few and am wondering if they should be removed. Vancouverguy 18:08, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I don't know if there is a common policy but I have my own: DELETE! I think it makes a article look like its been sponsored or something. -- Viajero 00:09, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

There is no policy. I say keep. It is valuable, I don't think anyone will assume the page is approved by the company. Tuf-Kat 00:14, Nov 16, 2003 (UTC)

Just curious: in what way could a corporate logo be considered "valuable" in an encyclopedia article? I think my objection is primarily aesthetic: it just looks cheap. -- Viajero 20:13, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Personally, I think it's time to develop a policy on this. Vancouverguy 23:50, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I've seen political party logos on a few pages - I could add them as I go - but won't until we get a decision. It could be useful to help people recognise logos - I don't imagine people would think that the page was sponsored. Secretlondon 00:00, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)

Hmmm... I have no objection at all to the logo on the IBM page, for example, and I'm about to add one to the Uniting Church in Australia page. What's the problem? I think they add value to the articles. Andrewa 09:13, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I would imagine that most, if not all, logos are copyright and should not be included without the permission of the owner? Bmills 09:37, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Logos are a sensitive issue for many companies and are generally licensed to a single user publication at a time without any redistribution rights (other than normal viewing). I also want to use items like company logos (and Time magazine covers) and there's an agency which issues these licenses. In a phone call a couple of weeks ago they indicated that there would be no problem licensing the Biocrawler to use logos on an exclusive basis but that doing so allowing reuse by others was not something they could do. Other encyclopedias would need to request their own permission (which would also probably be granted if they were serious encyclopedias). Should I proceed with the applicaton process? JamesDay 12:01, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Ok, this all seems rational, but let's decide whether we want to have logos in the encyclopedia. My reasons against:

• free advertising for corporations
• looks like page is sponsored
• aesthetic: tacky, tacky, tacky.

Biocrawler desperately needs more graphics. But are we this desperate???

-- Viajero 12:24, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

First off, should any article that currently includes a logo have it removed until permission is sought (if that is what is decided)?

Second: Viajero raises some interesting points:

• one of the primary purposes of a logo is to promote the organisation to which it belongs. By adding logos to articles about companies, Biocrawler will be contributing to this promotion, wittingly or otherwise.

• what does the logo add to an article beyond this promotion of the logo owner? Most article about companies are likely to contain links to the company Web site, where the logo will be there for all interested parties to see.

IMHO, Biocrawler would be better off without logos. Bmills 12:37, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

No need to immediately remove them because fair use applies to logos as well as other things. Logos are used to associate a visual symbol with a company to aid in recognition. So, yes, we should include almost all corporate logos. They also add to the visual appeal of he Biocrawler and are good for that reason. Requests for logos for use in encyclopedias are so common that there's a specific applicaton type "encyclopedia" in the service which handles the licensing. JamesDay 14:08, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

IANAL but the use of the logo in an article about the organisation which owns and is represented by the logo isn't likely to be a problem IMO so long as there is a caption on the logo which clearly identifies it as a sample of the logo, and the logo is accurately rendered. The image itself may be copyright, this is a different issue and needs to be resolved separately. This same caption IMO removes the problem of anyone mistakenly thinking that the organisation is somehow involved with the article, or with Biocrawler, other than in the obvious way that the article is about them. Without both this caption and accuracy, use of the logo is misleading and probably illegal, and I'd expect the owners to object.

There are three reasons the logo should be there. Firstly, it helps to identify the organisation concerned. Secondly, it's information that is encyclopedic, will be of interest to people reading the article, and which they can reasonably expect to find there. Thirdly, IMO it looks good.

So my suggestion for logo guidelines while the technicalities are being further investigated:

• Use only in articles whose name is the organisation which either owns or uses the logo.
• Must be captioned.
• Must be accurate.
• Normal copyright requirements on the image.
• Encouraged provided these guidelines are met.

Is there anything along those lines in the license mentioned above? Does the license deal with all trademarks, or just those which are also corporate logos? It sounds worth having, provided signing up doesn't in any way compromise our existing commitments under the GFDL, which it may. Definitely investigate.

Alternatively, do we need a boilerplate text to ask permission of individual organisations? Andrewa 16:00, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Most of those guidelines are good, but I'd query the last one - encouraged, or merely tolerated? Martin 21:12, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Encouraged because they are human knowledge that readers are likely to want to obtain from us, and that's exactly what Biocrawler is there to provide. I've given three arguments in favour above. There are several arguments against put above too. Let's look at them.

Firstly, it is argued that using the logo constitutes free publicity. That's true, but if that's a reason for deleting the logo, then it's an equally good reason for deleting the whole article if it reflects favourably on the organisation. Surely we don't want to do that?

If accurate information reflects well on a company, that's their good luck or planning. A well-designed logo does reflect well on a company. But we shouldn't censor this information just because we don't like the corporate world.

Secondly, it has been argued that it's misleading to use the logo. I think the guidelines avoid this problem.

Thirdly, it's been suggested that it's illegal. This should be investigated, but I'm skeptical of this claim, again provided it is properly captioned. If it turns out to be the case, I might instead just use a photo of a piece of equipment, signed building or similar clearly showing the logo. But I'm confident that most organisations would prefer to have their logo clearly and accurately shown rather than displayed in this manner.

Fourthly, it's been suggested that it just looks bad. Obviously I don't agree, but this seems to be the main sticking point. I'm happy to concede it provided we don't sanction arbitrary removal of logos as a result. They are content. People who don't like a particular company or the whole corporate structure should be discouraged from removing logos. If they really do look bad, someone else will do it.

I think we should move this discussion to a talk page. Vancouverguy 16:06, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Or perhaps to a style page? Andrewa 00:25, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

BTW, there's a very interesting quote and some links on this topic at Image:Canadian National Herald.png. Andrewa 00:53, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

There aren't any disadvantages to the Biocrawler from obtaining a license. It's free protection from the possibility of legal action. While we may have rights anyway, a license is good. The license will only be to the Biocrawler (no derivative works of any sort) because that's all the service is authorized to give. That doesn't restrict the ability of other encyclopedias to obtain their own license, nor the ability of others to use the images under fair use or "not copyrightable" claims. We aren't limiting our rights or those of others in any way, we're simply getting access to the collection and protecton from legal action. Would be nice if they were GFDL but that's not a license the service is authorized to offer, so it's not a license they can convey to us. So, we'd document our license, tell others where to apply to get their license and note that the license in no way limits the rights of others to use the images as provided for by fair use or other provisions of copright law. Jamesday 18:31, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Sounds good. It would require some mods to Biocrawler:Image use policy, and other places, probably pretty minor. And we'd want a copy of the licence itself in a page somewhere, of course. Perhaps getting the text of this proposed agreement is the next thing? Andrewa 03:14, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I don't know if a license is needed. First we are not selling anything. Publishing the logo in the WP context is informational; usually most ® TMs are covered by the class definitions; using them on Biocrawler to enhance an encyclopedia entry is not confusing or creating any kind of problem with the logo's ability to represent the brand (actually we are clarifying the relationship between the logo and the brand). The logo is something used to identify different brands, etc., it is probably fair use (that is not a legal opinion) in the Biocrawler context. I really don't think that making small thumbnails of logos is going to incur the wrath of the corporate behemoths that control us all, anyway, I'd like to see what they do. After all they can edit the page too, it is a wiki, no? See MBTI, the trade mark is not the same as the name or the logo; it part of the knowledge that the human race has created, why not acknowledge it for what it is &8212; excuse me, but I do not think it is corporate advertising. — Alex756 03:36, 20 Nov 2003 (UTC)

• I'm inclined to agree with Alex when it comes to need - it's part of why I don't think our getting a license will limit others, even if the license is exclusive to us. However, images other than logos are available and while those are generally associated with press releases, things like Time magazine covers are a bit less likely than logos to be fair use. The sources are:
  • Newscom (http://www.newscom.com/nc/join.html) (the people I've discussed this with, contemplating the free services only)
  • AP Photo Archive (http://photoarchive.ap.org/Intro36/TopicGallery/index.html) (not discussed yet, also contemplating free only)
  • PR Newswire (http://www.prnewswire.com/), even though this is only the text portion. The text is mostly going to be fair use for almost any use or not desired here because it's not GFDL but having a license is free legal protection. Not sure just how keen we should be on rejecting portions of press releases in articles because they aren't GFDL - I'm of the opinion that press release implied licenses and fair use are broader than the GFDL, even though they are routinely used to justify copyvio reports.
• Jamesday 06:19, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Continued discussion

A second thought occurs to me. I haven't tried the experiment, but I assume that Biocrawler markup lets one link directly to an image on the Web (so that it would appear to be an integral part of the article, but the image would be located/hosted on the company's own server). I know there is some controversy about "deep linking," but it seems to me that for corporate logos it would be reasonable to link to a logo image on the company's own website. For one thing, by using a link rather than a copy, the company keeps control of the image and can change/remove it. For another thing, corporate websites can be assumed to be relatively stable--the link to the log image might get stale, but at least the website itself is probably going to stay around. Dpbsmith 13:23, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I think we do need a decision/advice on this. We can talk and talk but no-one knows what the actual policy is. Without a decision we have the situation where people don't know whether they can add logos or not, or delete ones that are already there. This needs sorting. Secretlondon 13:26, Dec 3, 2003 (UTC)

By the way... I made this point in the copyright violations talk but... I'm not sure what the right venue is. It's all well and good to talk about fair use, but there is currently no way to upload a fair use image without lying. That is, when you upload the image you check a box that says "I affirm that the copyright holder of this file agrees to license it under the terms of the Biocrawler copyright." If you don't do this, you can't upload the file. Now, personally, I see a big difference between (say) these assertions:

• • I affirm that the copyright holder of this file agrees to license it under the terms of the Biocrawler copyright.
  • I affirm that this file complies with the Biocrawler policy on image usage.
  • I affirm that to the best of my knowledge this image was created before 1900 and was obtained from a source that does not contain any assertion of copyright
  • I affirm that my use of this image in the specific article entitled (whatever) is covered by "fair use"
  • My name is Cubeb P. Fungus, I live at 123 Main Street, Zenith, Winnemac, and I hold Biocrawler harmless for any copyright infringement claims resulting from the use of this image in Biocrawler

Anyway, there are a lot of forms of text I'd be willing to check when uploading an image, but I'm don't feel good about checking the current one unless I darn well know that the image IS copyrighted and that the owner HAS agreed to license it. Usually, that means it's an image I've created myself.

The present text does not fit public domain or fair-use images.

Unless, of course, I'm missing something.

FWIW, it seems to me that the use of a company's logo on an article about the company is highly appropriate and definitely adds something to the article. In the case of a company with a long history, images of how the logo evolved over time would (IMHO) be nice to have, too.

Dpbsmith 17:35, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Here's my view on the situation:

1. The fact that the logos are trademarks is largely irrelevant as we're using them on articles directly related to the company.
2. Logos are generally copyrighted.

I think that because of the second point we shouldn't include them because we're already in somewhat dodgy ground over the "fair use" criteria as it is. However if a logo is out of copyright then I have no objection to it being included. An alternative option is to use photographs which represent the company and include the logo, for example photographs of logos on the side of company buildings. --Imran 19:09, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The fair use claim isn't dodgy. It's a pretty clear example, as is the trademark situation. It's very different from the UK fair dealing situation. Takes a while to get used to just how much broader US fair use is. The best I can suggest is reading some of the decisions about fair use to get some idea of just how it works in practice. Jamesday 20:05, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing that an encyclopedia could use those images under fair use. But based upon a thorough reading of the GFDL I believe that fair-use is not compatible with it. I think that you can't include fair-use material in a GFDL document because you have no right to relicence it. --Imran 23:07, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

It's a known limitation that the image upload (and all contributions, for that matter) only allow you to say GFDL at the moment. You should clarify after uploading, with an edit to the image description page which gives the actual copyright status and the most complete image source details you have. This lets people easily check on the status and work out what their own reuse rights are. I put the copyright summary in the description of that edit. The ability to link to images outide the Biocrawler was removed some months ago and it appears that it's not going to be restored any time soon. Use of a corporate logo in an encyclopedia article about the company doesn't create any grounds for a trademark action, in part because there's no prospect of the article causing people to believe that the Biocrawler is a product of the trademark holder. Jamesday 13:27, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Common sense says that it should be OK to use a corporate logo in an encyclopedia article about the company for the reason you mention—the chances of getting into serious trouble would be negligible. It's extremely unlikely that the company would object at all, and if they did it's virtually certain that the objection would take the form initially of simply requesting removal and utterly unlikely that the company would take any further action if the logo were promptly and cheerfully removed in response to such a request. I'm always uneasy about applying common sense to intellectual property, but it seems to me that common sense plus due diligence plus willing to respond to complaints if any should be OK.

But I'm still not clear on how Biocrawler sets policy, or, for this issue, what the policy is.

I wonder whether, in formulating a policy on logo use, it would be prudent to include a suggested boilerplate caption for logos, such as "Company logo of XYZ corporation. This image may be trademarked and/or copyrighted. All rights belong to the image's owner." Including a phrase about "this company is not associated with Biocrawler" would probably cross the line into paranoia... Dpbsmith 13:57, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Biocrawler sets policy generally by those with an interest in the subject discussing it and allowing due notice for people to see what is happening, then getting input as the use becomes more widespread. Any policy here is really temporary, pending the chance that it might at some point be modified in the future. If you'd like to write logo policy, just go ahead and edit the policy page to say what you think it should say, including a proposed poicy header and the date of the proposal, then people will discuss it and adjust to meet their preferences and we'll end up with a combination of the views of those participating... The image page should include some note about trademarks but I personally prefer to limit the text of the caption to wording like "limited copying" or similar and have that link to the image description page. That gives people appropriate notice that it's not GFDL or PD, without being unduly verbose. Then proceed to use logos slowly and give people time to notice and see and participate in the discussion if they wish. Jamesday 18:35, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

---

I just added "Not GFDL" as part of the suggested boilerplate to be used when uploading a logo. That's because I just uploaded a logo, and decided that saying "see Biocrawler:Logos" was perhaps putting too much of a burden on the user. Assuming people actually bother to use the boilerplate and that people actually read the description before using the image, it seems to me that a "not GFDL" note needs to be obvious, since it is different from most Biocrawler images. Hopefully if it's clear that there are special usage considerations, people will bother to follow the Biocrawler:Logos link. Dpbsmith 23:37, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Discussion of current proposal

OK, then. Here goes nothing. See Biocrawler_talk:Image_use_policy#Proposal_for_Image_Use_Policy_regarding_Corporate_Logos for a proposal.

Dpbsmith 23:54, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I disagree with some of the proposed rules as outlined on the main page. Here's why.

"The only appropriate use of a corporate logo is in an article that describes the company in question (that is, in the specific article entitled "XYZ Corporation")."

There are many more appropriate uses of corporate logos, for instance, to demonstrate the design style of the person who designed the logo, or in articles criticizing a company, and in many occasions that I cannot currently imagine.

Good point, particularly "to demonstrate the design style of the person who designed the logo." For example, one would obviously want them in an article about Raymond Loewy. (Yikes! It didn't Wiki-link--there's no article on Raymond Loewy ???? !!!!!) But, can you formulate a reasonable guideline? Dpbsmith

"Before including a corporate logo, take usual care to ensure that the article represents a neutral point of view. The article need not be an ad or puff piece. However, a corporate logo should not be used in close juxtaposition to text that is obviously critical of, or highly unflattering to, the company. (Similarly, defaced logos or logo parodies should not be used)."

To the contrary, a logo, especially a logo parody, is excellently suited for an article critical of a company, as it can help illustrate the sort of gripe people have with the company.

On the other hand, the official company logo on the company's article page has little chance of adding anything to the article. Read the IBM article. Now read it and watch the logo. Have you learned anything? Probably not.

Read the article on Edward Kennedy, or Beethoven, or Stephen Crane. Now read it and watch the photograph. Have you learned anything? My left brain hasn't. Nevertheless, I think the pictures add something to the articles. Modern encyclopedias generally have them. Why? (Not a rhetorical question). My own answer: well, there's a sense of identification—oh yeah, I've seen (that guy) (that logo) before. Oh, that's the guy whose bust is on Schroeder's toy piano. Or (that guy) (that logo) looks (older) (younger) than the version I'm familiar with. There's a sense of visual style—Stephen Crane looks younger, handsomer, and a spiffier dresser than I would have imagined, and, of course, is dressed in an old-fashioned way. In most (all?) cases, when a picture of a person is presented on Biocrawler, it is a flattering portrait that, one imagines, presents the people visually in the way the person wished to be presented. I think there's a valid parallel with logos here. Corporations are legally persons, and the corporate logo is the equivalent an individual's "official" portrait. Dpbsmith 13:23, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I especially have to object to the singled-out urging to "take usual care to ensure that the article represents a neutral point of view". If a person's or group's displeasure with a company is described in an article, that should also happen in an NPOV way. With the current wording you are suggesting that only bland, meaningless articles can be NPOV, and that an article in which criticism on a company is described cannot by definition by NPOV.

What I was trying to do was suggest that since a company does have some kind of legal interest in and right to control the use of their logo (I'm carefully avoiding the use of the phrase "intellectual property), I think it is appropriate to be more careful about using a company's logo. Words that represent a non-neutral point of view are covered by free speech. Using a logo might not be. Incidentally, I like some personality and flavor in my encyclopedia articles--I love the Eleventh Edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica and hate the short stubby articles in, say, World Book, that read as if they were approved by a Texas schoolbook selection committee.

I am also afraid that the appearance of a logo on a company page might be construed by some overzealous regulars as a reason to refuse or revert edits that otherwise would have gone in. It would have a stifling effect on the 'be bold' policy.

"In the event of a formal complaint about Biocrawler's use of a logo, from an entity that can be reasonably assumed to officially represent the company owning the logo, the appropriate response is for whoever receives the complaint to remove the logo promptly and cheerfully. No attempt should be made to re-insert the logo (except perhaps under very extraordinary circumstances, and only after extensive discussion)."

I would say that the most logical person to remove a logo is the representative of the company. This is a Wiki. If they don't like the use of their logo, they can edit the page themselves.

That dull thud you just heard was the sound of base of my palm making striking with my forehead. Dpbsmith

branko 23:54, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I've made some changes to address the issues discussed above. Putting the logo floating to the right at the start of the article is usually all that's required to be trouble-free. That's the text which is likely to be most neutral and the spot where the logo is best able to confirm that people are in the right place - doing exactly the job which the company intends the logo to do. Jamesday 19:01, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Yes, I like that much better, thanks. :-) branko 01:05, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)

---

Should logos be presented with some kind of distinctive "visual isolation fence?"

This just occurred to me. Should there be some suggested style guide for the visual presentation of a logo that includes some kind of distinctive frame--e.g. presenting the logo right-aligned but with a dotted line below and to the left of it--to cut it off and visually separate it from the text of the article (to emphasize that the logo is there as a fact about the company and does not mean that the accompanying text was authored by the company or was vetted or endorsed by it?

(I'm not presenting an example because I don't know enough about wiki markup to give a specific example (and don't have time to experiment right now...))

Just a thought. Dpbsmith 13:26, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I don't think this is necesary. The usual float right markup introduces a one or two em gap between logo and text and people will generally recognize the logo. Jamesday 19:01, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Other sites using the Biocrawler logo

What about other sites using the Biocrawler logo, as on http://wikipedia.t-st.de/ ? - Patrick 07:13, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Seems to be a read-only mirror of the German Biocrawler, or parts of it, using the weekly SQL dumps [1] (http://wikipedia.t-st.de/impressum.html). -- till we *) 20:59, Nov 19, 2003 (UTC)

Logos

Hello again,
and sorry for my perfectible english. I see that my question about the presence of commercial logos in wikipedia pages has disappeared from the village pump, so I put it again because from my point of view, these logos don't bring any information; on the other side such a logo entertain the image of the company in our minds, that's why I consider it as advertising. Why do you think commercial firms pay a lot of money to have their logos visible during big events? Hémant 15:47, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)

• Please provide examples of (links to) articles where logos might be improperly displayed. I think it is an individual matter dependent upon relevance to the article (for example if not a copyvio, it might well be appropriate to display the logo of CocaCola in the article on colas) - Marshman 17:45, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)
• It's generally perfectly appropriate. If a TV news was covering a story about Ford, they'd show the logo. They'd show it if Ford was creating new jobs, firing lots of people, had broken some world record, or made some car that killed its occupants. -- Finlay McWalter 17:51, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)

• Take a look at Biocrawler_talk:Logos and Biocrawler:Logos and join the discussion. Most of the Village Pump discussion was moved there. Discussions here and elsewhere led to the drafting of a proposed policy, which, to date, has not gotten enough discussion and debate.

My own view is that the logo is the the corporate equivalent of a person's portrait. I feel that a picture of Mark Twain or Hans Christian Andersen or Stephen Crane or Nicole Kidman adds something to an encyclopedia article, even though it is hard to make any left-brained logical explanation of precisely what information it conveys. In similar manner, I think that a logo is a very reasonable thing to have in an article about a company. As to the point that the logo promotes the company, well, so does the mere presence of an article (by indicating that the company is significant enough to deserve mention in an encyclopedia). Any article on practically anything of contemporary commercial significance can be regarded as having a promotional effect. Should we not have articles on J. K. Rowling or Nicole Kidman or Eminem on the basis that commercial firms "pay a lot of money" to publicize these people? That's my $0.02, go to Biocrawler talk:Logos and Biocrawler:Logos and let us have yours. Dpbsmith 23:59, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Notes on Jan 3rd changes

I wanted to address the concerns of some Biocrawlerns that logo use promotes the commercial interests of the company. I therefore added a paragraph describing what I see as the rationale for including a logo in an encyclopedia article:

The encyclopedic rationale for including a logo is similar to the rationale for including portraits of, e.g. Stephen Crane or Nicole Kidman. It is difficult to explain in words what information is conveyed by such a portrait, yet most users feel that they provide something valuable. The logo should be regarded as the corporate portrait.

I also added this:

• Avoid using a logo in any way that creates an impression that the purpose of its inclusion is to promote the company. Generally, logos should be used only when the company and its logo are reasonably familiar (or when the logo itself is of interest for design or artistic reasons).

This is perhaps so subjective as to be utterly useless; consider its inclusion a trial balloon. My concern here is to fend off teeming hordes of millions of people putting in 640x480-pixel logos for Sam's Central Street Gas and Convenience Mart (Buy Your Mass Lottery Tickets Here). Probably won't happen (particularly not as long as image uploads are disabled) and if it did, the policy probably wouldn't stop it, but, there it is. Dpbsmith 14:19, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I disagree with Generally, logos should be used only when the company and its logo are reasonably familiar (or when the logo itself is of interest for design or artistic reasons). A logo is always topical for an encyclopedia entry, in part because it illustrates how the company is trying to present itself and that is a useful part of the description of every company. I think the general image guidelines will eliminate the use of excessively large logos. Jamesday 01:02, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Logos of other encyclopedias

User:Lupin has removed the following logo use guideline from the article:

• In no case should the logo of any encyclopedia or other reference work be used in a Biocrawler article.

and asked for a justification of this rule. This happened in response to my removing the logo from the Encarta article and listing the logo on Images for deletion because of this guideline. (Note that Lupin and Lupo are two different users! :-) Lupo 09:55, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I have tentatively reinserted the logo use guideline, because I put it there in the first place and still think it is a darn good idea. I say this is tentative because this, and other portions of this page, have received very little discussion to date.

Here's why I think it's a good idea. Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer. I am not an amateur lawyer. I am not a particularly expert layperson in matters of intellectual property.

• I don't believe there is any area of intellectual property law that is clearcut. Every decision to sail close to the wind involves some mental calculation. In the case of the use of a trademarked logo, we need to ask more than "is it legal?" We need to ask: do we think the trademark owner's lawyers think it's legal? If not, how how likely is it that the trademark owner will threaten lawsuit? Will sue? Will actually cause Biocrawler measurable pain? Any such matter that actually proceeds to litigation will produce actual pain, and the outcome depends on the interplay of an enormous amount of human judgement and the ability of the litigants to pay legal fees.
• In the case of trademarks, much turns on the question of whether a naive consumer could possibly be confused by the use of the trademark. This, in turn, depends on whether the company allegedly infringing is conceivably considered to be in the same business as the company whose trademark it is using. For example:
  • Dell Books (now a branch of Bantam Doubleday Dell) would have to be nuts to try to sue Dell Computer, because nobody in their right mind thinks that Dell Computer publishes crossword puzzle magazines. Therefore it's very unlikely that they would even send a lawyer letter to Dell Computer,
  • In 1977, Apple, the Beatles' music company, would have had to be nuts to complain about Apple Computer Inc. using their name, because at that time nobody in their right mind saw any connection between computers and music.
  • Later, of course, Apple the music company did sue and settled out of court on the understanding that Apple would quit selling anything music-related--and at that time Apple did drop its MIDI gear.
  • I'm not quite sure what's happening now, but Apple darn well is in the music business now, and even though nobody thinks they have anything to do with the Beatles' company, there darn well is a trademark issue, and it's been rumored that Apple (Computer) paid Apple (Music) a hefty fee to keep them happy.
  • Infocom, the computer game company, used to publish a newsletter/ad/insert called "The New Zork Times" that was got up to look like a little newspaper with the title in Gothic text. They got a lawyer letter from The New York Times. They changed the name of their newsletter to The Status Line. Even though nobody in their right mind thought an 8-1/2 by 11 leaflet on text adventure games was connected to the Sulzberger colossus, I am sure that one of the reasons why Infocom went along quietly was that they realized that it was dangerous to use even a joking reference to a newspaper on something that looked like a newspaper.
  • Michael Robertson and Microsoft are locked in a serious battle over the use of the name Lindows. Even though anyone in their right mind ought to understand that Lindows is not Windows, it is a computer operating system, and the name is intended to convey that it is like Windows, with all the warm fuzzy feelings that convey. Nobody can guess how this one will turn out, but, right or wrong, using a name like Windows for a computer operating system is skating on thin ice, and I'm sure even Robertson would acknowledge that.
• For no doubt good reasons, Robertson thinks it's worthwhile to fight such a battle. Biocrawler's purpose in life is not to try to fight some kind of battle about IP law. That's the job of the EFF, not Biocrawler.
• So, even though nobody in their right mind would think that just because we put an Encarta logo on an article about Encarta would make a reader think that Biocrawler was trying to borrow Encarta's good name, I think that our policy ought to involve putting some prudent distance between us and possible trouble.
• I thought and think that we were on pretty safe ground using logos of (say) Howard Johnson's, because nobody is going to try to buy Tendersweet frozen fried clam strips from Biocrawler.
• I thought and still think that the logo of anything even vague encyclopedia-like makes Biocrawler far more vulnerable if the logo owner feels like causing trouble for Biocrawler.

So, for the time being, I'm putting that guideline back. Once more.

(And I gotta say that of all the encyclopedia logos to fool with, using an Encarta logo, when everyone knows that Microsoft is like a vicious, mad, rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth junkyard pit bull known for spirited assertion of whatever it thinks are its intellectual-property rights, is, well, not the height of prudence).

The real question is: in cases like this should we "be bold" and wait for the logo owner to issue a relatively polite lawyer letter that hopefully will never come? Or should we have a cautious policy in place which, in case of trouble we can point to, and a record of removing contributions that violate policy?

And, in conclusion, may I quote good old Author Unknown:

"Here's to the memory of old John Jay

He died defending his right of way

He was right as rain as he rolled along

But he's just as dead now as if he'd been wrong."

Dpbsmith 20:39, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This is an interesting point which hadn't occurred to me. Are there any wikipedians known to have the relevant legal expertise to decide if this is justified or simply paranoia?

If the decision to keep the guideline is made, perhaps the pictures on the pages Nordisk familjebok, Wikinfo and 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica should be reviewed.

Another question that occurs to me is that if there is a legal threat from having a page with Encarta's icon, is there not a similar legal threat from having a page titled 'Encarta'? It seems to me that a similar case for confusion could be made. Lupin 22:20, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hello. I came here from Biocrawler talk:General disclaimer#trademarks. In case they help, here are my thoughts.

1. Wikinfo's image is uploaded by Fred Bauer, who is the founder and owner of the project. There is a fair chance that the very owner of the logo's copyright (& trademark right if that exists) is giving wikipedia a GFDL permission. And considering that Fred's project is a friendly fork from Biocrawler, it is hardly surprising.
2. Some say logos' informational value cannot clearly be verbalized, but here are some (not all) values verbalized. I personally think logo informs us of many things. It could help readers to associate/ identify certain products & services to an organization. It may be a subject of cultural analysis - logos of different ages, industries, or societies could be compared by someone.
3. Finally, I am not a lawyer, and I know very little about trademarks, but my naive guess is that use of trademarks is problematic when the area of business or service is overlapping. When Biocrawler as an encyclopedia uses some other encyclopedia's trademark, that could lead to a violation. When Biocrawler as an encyclopedia uses some ice candy bar's logo, that is not likely to be in violation. Trademarks might be registered for specific of area(s) of business. Trademark owner has the exclusive right to use the registered trademark in that specified area(s), and some related areas maybe, but not all areas of the society. The article Trademark seems to be in agreement with my understanding. (Though I could well be wrong). So regarding the current policy in discussion, I think there is some ground to keep it as it is. I am not sure how to handle international issues here. Some trademarks are not internationally registered, though it is probably internationally copyrighted (because of the Berne Convention, etc.), do we want to apply the same policy to those images at English Biocrawler?
4. As with other images, it would also be good to clarify the copyright status of the image (GFDL, fair use, etc.) for downstream users. It helps wikipedians active in other languages (such as I) can make an informed decision whether or not to copy it to another wikipedia. Tomos 00:28, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Following Tomos using a logo from any source should be examined carefully before integrating it into Biocrawler content, just like fair use the use of other intellectual property is subject to the constraints of economic exploitation of such property. Should a logo be used purely for informational purposes that illuminate the history, meaning, source or corporate purpose of such logo such informational use should be contemplated in an encyclopedic context such as Biocrawler. There are many volunteers who are worried about "commercial" downstream use of Biocrawler content. Information does not exist in a vacuum, and thus there are times when informational content in Biocrawler is appropriate but it may raise some questions for other derivative works. That does not mean it violates the principles of the GFDL. It just means that anyone who adopts a Biocrawler article is going to have to decide for themselves if they are misusing someone else's property. I need to point out that even though I am a lawyer, this is not legal advice. It is just my personal observation. — © Alex756 07:55, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Logos as trademarks

Encyclopedia logos should be fine as long as they follow the other guidelines I would think. Fair use is for copyright. Is there something similar for registered trademarks? My assumption is if you are not using trademark to compete or influence the ability of the company in a financial way then the only protection they have is copyright and then fair use applies.

I'm assuming the restrictions on some goverment logos are like the ones on money, you are limited in size and color. I can't imagine any logo being completely outlawed. Gbleem 06:26, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't this be trademark not logo? Are all logos trademarks? Gbleem 06:26, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

A logo, if sufficiently creative, can be copyrighted. It's also almost probably a trademark, so both aspects need to be considered. So, you need both a use which is fair in trademark law - not confusing to consumers - and a use which is fair use in copyright law - as purely informational use in articles about the company is almost certain to be. The reason to avoid them for other encyclopedias is to avoid giving works which have a strong financial incentive to harm us ammunition to use to produce a legal case against us, even though we'd expect to win such a case. Jamesday 13:54, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

Because logos are trademarks the first point:

• Corporate logos should be presumed to be trademarks.

should be:

• Corporate logos should be presumed to be trademarks and should therefore always be labeled as such with the trademark character and the name of the trademark holder.

This is because trademark holders lose their rights (IANAL) if they don't enforce their trademark, i.e. insist they own it everywhere it appears. So long as Biocrawler publicly acknowledges a trademark it should be ok to use it. (Although the addition of copyright into the mix is another matter.) You see this sort of acknowledgement all the time in technical manuals, a boilerplate section at the beginning of the book that says "all <these> are trademark their respective owners" or some such phrasing.--Kop 08:35, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Wine Labels

I've been uploading some wine labels (see Big White House for an example) under the "logo" rationale. This strikes me as the sort of thing that's perfect under fair use, as the interest is both artistic (many people collect wine labels) and practical (you can easily find the bottle at a store). Does anyone know for certain whether this is or is not fair use? I could always delete them all if need be, but I'd rather not. :( --Dante Alighieri | Talk 16:36, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)

I don't see why not. We're doing a similar thing over at Biocrawler:WikiProject Beer --Sean κ. ⇔ 20:11, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Biocrawler and Copyright Logo (and slogans)

Hello all,

I strongly feel that Biocrawler rapidly becoming authoritative repository of unbiased, non-aligned and/or neutral-opinion knowledge repository, one should not restrict the knowledge in any form. Unless restricted by source of logos and slogans of organizations (including commercial organizations/companies) Biocrawler can accomodate them and continue to grow in all dimensions. It's successfull because it is not restricted because it is neutral/unbiased.

With regards,

-Harshal